Sean Plunket & Dr Jordan B Peterson on proposed sex Self-ID legislation

JOSEPH MCCRAY/ELEIKO Laurel Hubbard lifts in the snatch at the world championships in Anaheim, California.

Magic Talk begins at 14:40

Sean

I want to come back to that point. Look, the other thing? bill? ah… proposed bill we have before our parliament is the idea of self-identification to make it easier for people to alter their birth certificates if they choose to identify as anything other than the sex they were born as. Your views on…on that sort of legislation?

Jordan

Well, the first thing I would say, it might be useful to really address some important problems, that would be the first thing. You are dealing with an absolutely tiny minority of people, not that that?s completely without import.

But the second thing is it has to be thought through. And its not. I mean, I don’t know if you’ve been fol… (line goes dead)

Sean

We’re just having a little hiccup there. We might… this is a good point. I’m quite interested in this folks, if you’re listening, we?ve got Jordan B. Peterson on the line and we’re just going to take – we might just take a wee break while we sort out our technical problems.

And we are talking to Dr Jordan B Peterson who is joining us via Skype from Sydney. Jordan we were talking about sex self-identification changes or proposed reform in New Zealand. You said firstly it?s a tiny number of people affected and secondly you say we need to think it through. In what way?

Jordan

Well, one of the things that?s happened, for example, (indistinct) really what this is, is an attempt by a certain ideological movement to? to put forth the insistence that sex is only a sociological construct, that it?s only something learned. And so that it can be changed at whim. Which is really a strange thing because if it?s learned it can?t really be changed at whim. And also if it?s learned it could be unlearned. Which is something that the people who are putting this legislation forward aren?t really thinking through because that opens up the opportunity for people who would like to reform people who would like to change their gender back to, say, normative behaviour. Because if it?s learned it can be unlearned.

But, more importantly, sex rules are not only learned, they are partly learned and there?s plenty of biological differences between men and women. And there… many of them aren?t trivial. Men and women are more the same than they are different, but the differences are quite marked at the extremes.

So, what we are seeing, partly as a consequence of this now, is the movement of, say, trans-women into female sports. You say this in Minnesota just the other day, I think it was Minnesota, where a newly, ah… transitioned trans-woman has been shattering the weight lifting records for women?s sports?

Sean

And, indeed, we?ve had this issue here with a Commonwealth Games competitor, he was a former male?.

Jordan

Yeah – well… it?s absolutely insane! You know, I mean first the fact that it?s allowed to begin with is beyond comprehension, it?s a real sign of cultural insanity. And the second is that psychologically it?s almost incomprehensible. I can?t imagine how you could be a man who transforms himself into a woman in all the ways that that?s possible, and then decide to go compete in a high-level sports arena with women who have been training their whole life to hit the peak of their ability, and then to absolutely bloody demolish them, say after a year of work and then to tout that as some sort of victory for the oppressed.

It?s completely… it’s narcissistic beyond comprehension and it?s? it?s?. it?s a sign of what happens when you don?t carefully think things through. All sorts of unexpected consequences tend to manifest themselves. And you see the same thing happening now with rapid onset gender dysphoria and the treatment of very young people with very powerful hormonal and surgical techniques designed to permanently alter their psycho-physiological structure.

And, like, we are going to pay for this in a big way in 15 years when these kids grow up and hit adulthood and start, ah… tossing out lawsuits as they certainly will and should. We are going to look back and wonder what the hell was wrong with us. So it?s? it?s… it’s driven by this ideology that?s been formulated by people like Judith Butler who absolutely insist, because they have no biological knowledge whatsoever, that all the differences between men and women are socially constructed.

Sean

Yes.

Jordan

Which is absolutely not true.

Sean

True. Absolutely.

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